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MTC Feedback & Ideas Thread
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MTC Feedback & Ideas Thread 2021-06-06 11:03:52  
Dear TrackmaniaExchange community,

I created this thread to collect ongoing feedback and discussion about the Monthly Track Contest in general.

Post here...
  • your feedback on the MTC
  • discussion about the MTC
  • your ideas for future MTC themes

As always, keep it civil. A few things I want to give you on the way, before you consider to write feedback:
  • The MTC is voluntarily hosted by MX Crew.
  • You can host and judge a MTC, too! Apply as MX Crew member here and help us making the MTC's better.
  • We're doing our best to make the MTC's enjoyable within our time frame.
Lead Developer
Location: DE
2021-06-06 11:30:28  
This is a reply to a post by Shyin.

Hey Shyin,

thanks for your detailed feedback. We will make use of some of your points to make the MTC better in the future. I wanna touch on some of your points, though, so there's no misunderstandings. :p

Shyin says:
First, as we all know, an MTC theme is habitually original, if I remember correctly, since 2011.

We have had reocurring themes before. It was asked for by the community, since some might've missed themes before and wanted to map for those. That's assuming of course that with "original" you mean "unique".

If you meant something like "good", it is of course subjective. We're always trying to do something new, so themes you don't like might happen from time to time. So it's good you give us the feedback on the theme - otherwise we'll not know whether the theme is good or not! (y)

Shyin says:
I think the MTC staff should be replaced, at least a part of it and have at least 2 people to post the message and choose the theme.
What I mean is that even if you have personal problems, you put yourself in it and you should know when you're able to post a message for MTC Theme.

That's a little harsh, but I understand the frustration. We won't replace anyone, but you'll be welcome to actively help out if you want to make the MTC's better (see the first post of this thread).

We've always seeked for help around the MTC's ever since the days of TM1X and the few people that are ready to step up to host it are just doing the best they can with the time given. The fact that   r_teroor is doing the MTC's at all is greatly appreciated and he's doing a great job. I'm sure there'll be no replacement for him . :)

"Shyin" says:
Posting a theme the 07th of the month is absolutely not perfect

I agree on this and we'll discuss it within the team soon.

"Shyin" says:
...and waiting more than 3 months to get a simple result of MTC November isn't good.
Having at least 2 or 3 people for the messages and the testing would be perfect and the theme would maybe be better after that.

I come back to my point about helping us out, if you want to improve the MTC's. There's no man/womanpower at the moment to realize this each month.

"Shyin" says:
You can say what you want, adding + or - points because you respected some condition is just too much restrictive for mappers.

I feel I have to disagree with it: Themes with similar base idea have been quite handy for mappers to get big points on, since otherwise, the judgement of the MTC is very subjective and based on the skill and taste of the judges. If this way of adding and removing points is good or not, I think we'll find out soon. :build:
Last edited by Ozon, 2021-06-06 11:30:46
Lead Developer
Location: DE
2021-06-06 11:42:49  
The thing that in my opinion is absolutely worry full is deleting critics instead of discussing it.
In the thread of the April MTC some people did criticize the theme choice. But instead of discussing it, a lot of these posts were deleted.




Moderator
Location: 001
2021-06-06 11:54:54  
Gilli says:
The thing that in my opinion is absolutely worry full is deleting critics instead of discussing it.
In the thread of the April MTC some people did criticize the theme choice. But instead of discussing it, a lot of these posts were deleted.

I agree, it wasn't good. We'll not do this again. (y)
Lead Developer
Location: DE
2021-06-06 12:18:49  
Hey
i wanna also say something to it and dont get me wrong pls Shyin.

... says:
In second, I think the MTC staff should be replaced, at least a part of it and have at least 2 people to post the message and choose the theme.


First of all a bit harsh but i can tell you from november until yet the Stuff has change before teroor it was Sky who managed the MTC. Teroor just took over out of nowhere because MTC was in need of an new manager.
so actual is only Teroor since January and also since January i am the only Judge who is every Month there and since last Month i joined also the TMX Crew to help out on MTC a bit.
Like you dont know its not that easy as you say. December didnt got Judge so Sky and Me talk and he ask me if i can do the Judgment etc for it.
First of all finding people who are willing to judge is not that easy. That i got the people after 1 week which means 1-2Weeks for Judgement.
so 3 weeks are allready over.
And pls Remember we also all have an normal life an Job, an Family also other things to do. We do this here for free we dont get paid or something else.
so arround for an MTC Judgement it mostly take depending also on the judges 4-5 Weeks until something like this is done.


... says:
I just write it because it shows the originality of the themes these 3 last months on a game that has been released the 1st of July 2020, we are the 5th of June 2021.


Now to your Theme Point, Yes this themes happen allready does this mean it is bad? No since last year Trackmania evolve really much in there tracks and items. So why not repeating
But i agree with you on the Point system i also dont like the restriction of the Maps because for me MTC means freedom of the Mappers which getting a Theme. But i dont want to discuss this if i am honest . I am not the host of the MTC and dont make decision.

But i can tell Teroor and me discuss about Themes for this Month. I gave him a couple of nice Themes also i was up for the Dirt theme but i didnt know about the restriction.


... says:
Posting a theme the 07th of the month is absolutely not perfect, and waiting more than 3 months to get a simple result of MTC November isn't good.


If i am honest i dont see a problem posting a Theme in the first seven days of a month. As i mention on Top we are also just Humans.


Code:
we already have many non-original theme coming in


Also here just wanna remember you , just because its simple dont means its easy.
Example "Scenery"
its sound simple but is hard to having a good route and Scenery
because 0815 Scenery will get you no points as some people knowledge

"Dirt" current theme
when i see the Theme as a Judge, i know allready for what maps i am waiting for. It the turn of the Mapper beeing Original and Inovativ making something crazy or nice out of it.
You talk about restriction in your post but if you want more "Original Themes" than we need to start restrict them to be Original more and more. Otherwise it is just like you saying an non-original Theme.
Also this is a mapping contest since when does a mapping contest need Absolut Crazy ideas. Also a Simple idea can be creativ like dirt ;-)
Its on you to show how creativ and Original you can handle those themes.

(EDIT by eyebo: Corrected all instances of teroor's name as they were misspelled. ;))
Last edited by eyebo.wp, 2021-06-07 03:37:52
The one and only
Location: SE
My opinion: 2021-06-07 01:10:08  
This month is make a dirt map, last month was make an ice map, and the month before was make a mixed surface map. These themes are all uninteresting to me personally, I am sure some people like them, but they are all very similar and 3 in a row which I think whether you like this type of theme or not it is repetitive at this point.

On top of this there is no guarantee results won't take months to be released. If I spend the time to participate in the competition I don't want to wait months to know who won for numerous reasons. And as a competitor I hate to say it but I don't care the reason why this is the case, it is entirely unreasonable in my opinion to possibly have to wait for months for the results. And as mentioned in the original post, releasing the theme already a week into the month is not ideal either (not the end of the world though of course).

This paragraph is just my opinion and I will put it bluntly: I hate the extra points list both in concept and implementation. I also know I am not the only person to share this dislike of the extra points system, as I have talked to many mappers about the mtc and almost all of them dislike the extra points list. The idea of the extra points makes it so that the theme is no longer your main concern, but fulfilling a list of random requirements which leave much less room for creativity. Regardless of that, I strongly dislike the list itself. Getting more points for using custom items, specific signs, a certain type of turn (noslide), and removing points for using a certain gear or blocks all seems completely arbitrary and restrictive without any discernable purpose/goal.

Possibly my biggest issue with the mtc though is how the criticism was handled. What teroor did was mod abuse. It is one thing to be defensive or ignorant in the face of criticism, it's something everyone does from time to time. However when a mod starts deleting messages at their whim simply because they do not like what people are saying about their decision it is not ok.

I don't entirely agree that staff should be replaced, but something needs to change, because whatever the internal workings or struggles of the mtc staff is, the end product is not a working competition.

Location: US
My 2 cents 2021-06-07 08:14:12  
As someone who recently came back to TM after not having uploaded a map since 2009-2011 I can't say anything about the TMNF/TM20 transition period, so I'm just gonna tell my experience for the last 2-3 months.

Judging

Compared to what I was used to back then, the MTC judging has considerably slowed down. And I understand it to be honest. To be a fair judge you have to play every track often enough to get a feel for it, try to hunt for a good time, drive some more times for scenery, reload to watch the MT again. Now, I'm a shit driver so my proces might be slower, but I feel that you're averaging about 45min per map? With a personal life & motivation you could say that 1 track average a day could be a guideline, but depending on your day, your work, your kids, your spouse that changes as well. And I think everyone on here understands that to a degree, but on the other hand 3 months is a bit longer of a time for results. December was obviously an outlier, january was done in 2 months and februari was done in three months. If we get March this month it's again 3 months.

I think it would be easier to go with the flow if there was a bit more communication, or a guideline at least. Is it the goal of the judges to have it done in a month, in 2 months? Do the judges feel it's fair to them that the community has these expectations, despite them doing this for free in their private time? Do the judges understand, but still feel like they need more room to work with? What are the requirements to be a judge? I know I can't be one as I can't get gold medals on all the tracks, but people better than me might be interested to help out? If a judge is chosen for consecutive months and is behind for the first out of three months, obviously the rest is gonna lag behind as well so could that be kept to a minimum?

I don't think the community is 100% in the wrong here, but on the other hand I also support the people who make the MTC what it is. This is only a game after all, and you're not being compensated for your time and effort. So it really shouldn't be a priority. But the funk & excitement also goes away a bit if we have to wait this long for results, in my personal opinion.

Theme's & extra's

For the theme of the last few months - I don't mind, but that's because i'm new to TM20 and this was a great moment to learn the surfaces a bit more. I think the April theme was a fun one with the equal divided time, but I do agree that simply ice & dirt are a bit generic.

That said, coupled with some rules it would be a fun challenge, and I'm not against them. But discouraging a style like FS with no 5th gear, or a rather specific technique (which honestly, I had to look up as I didn't know what it was) feel a bit too forced. Stuff like mixing road & platform, custom items, scenery, god MT, a screenshot are all good additions I think, but shouldn't be worth more than the actual theme itself all in all.


Overall

That got longer than anticipated.

I wanna express my thanks to everyone involved in the MTC. Even with this hiccup right now I'm glad it's still a thing more than 10 years later. I'm very much looking forward to every monthly edition & I sincerely hope it keeps going. Both participants & judges make good points about expectations vs priorities, so I hope that previous & current judges also shed some light on how they experience their side to give us some perspective.

There could be some optimizations, which isn't an unfair call, but they should be within the realms of the realistic & possible instead of expecting results by the 15th of the following month or a mindblowing theme every edition, because ain't no way anyone needs that extra stress in life due to a videogame.
2021-06-07 15:01:15  
I will answere again for you guys.

Comment About time of the result
My Job is electrician , i drive sometimes out of nowhere for 1week away and no i just know this 2 days before i drive away what happen in february. Do you dont think that other peoples also have something to do we are not Young anymore and can spend 24H in the Game.
Even than Me as a Judge i spent sometimes more than 4 Hours on one map Please check out February or January most of the Maps are longer than 1Minute. So not easy to catch up.

Also where is March , March results are allready done but Terror is waiting for me doing a video for it which will come in the next Days.
Also April will also follow.
And no we know about times and do you think we not trying to work on it. Like i am fresh new now in TMX Crew and helping out on MTC so currently i am since this Month a supporter for Terror for Themes, Judges etc helping him out as i can.

"Themes"
First of all to this Restriction Terror and me talk about yesterday a lot about it. I told him, i also dislike it since i did the judge for December and i saw the point system there. But i dont know you guys "kinda stuck on old things" like we testing new stuff like this points system okay we saw you dont like it, that dont give you the permission to bash on Terror .

Instead we will try something else and idea is reworking the Judgement and implenting this points now into the Judge system . We will see how this goes.

Also again i dont know , Most of the people who currently complain here are never enter the MTC so i can get your points but i am also like you didnt join in the past and dont think you will in the future so just go on ;-)
And now here something else
"Mixed" in july where a Theme Allready yeah okay, why not repeating it? also the focus where on Transitions between it so your main points coming from this one of the rules where using every envy 25% .
Also now here a list why repeating those Themes is good
1. Not everyone who is today on TMX were in July 2020 on TMX so giving them the chance to also try it out
2. This is now over half a year ago , We got more Items than back than which means we get more interesting maps than in the past.
3. Repeating stuff is not bad at all since people who joined back than are like okay i skip this MTC and new people like oh i wanna try that out

... says:
Possibly my biggest issue with the mtc though is how the criticism was handled. What teroor did was mod abuse. It is one thing to be defensive or ignorant in the face of criticism, it's something everyone does from time to time. However when a mod starts deleting messages at their whim simply because they do not like what people are saying about their decision it is not ok.


Oof okay seems like you really wanna go that way?
Okay First of all in June nothing got deleted i can see all Deleted Messages. No Critism got deleted i love to see this fake news from you Ski_Freak.
And in April Just this got deleted which is basically nothing.


And now for everyone lets go to July 2020
... says:
Theme Information

A surface is considered to be included if the route of the map leads over that part of the block. If the fastest route does not go over the surface, the surface does not count towards the overall surface count.

Examples of surfaces are:
Road
Dirt
Ice
Sausage Road
Platform
Structure (Folders 11-3, 11-4)
Wood
Dark Platform
Signs
Pillars (Item Folder)
Grass

If you think you've found another surface or if you'd like to know, if some part of a block is considered to be a different surface, mention it in this forum thread or visit us on Discord!


Okay emmm
Here now April 2021
... says:
Theme Information

When you first read the title you may have think. "Mixing style so mixing tech with FS with dirt etc etc "... NO NO NO.
This month, we want people to think about how to mix all the terrain surfaces in the style of your choice. Since this new trackmania some different gameplay have been added (ice, grass) and some have been modified like roaddirt.
So this time, the note of the theme will be focus on the way the transitions are built between these surfaces and a fair use between them. We want maps that use 25% ice (bobsleigh or ice plateforms or narrow ones) 25% dirt (plateform or dirt road or customs) 25% concrete (techroad or black/white concrete plateforms or narrow ones) 25% Grass (StadiumGroundGrass or the "New" Grass or the Grass plateform or the Narrow ones) in total.
Of course you dont need to be exactly 25% of each but only approximativly (dont take your calculator to compt precisly the seconds of each parts); and you can do for example 10% Grass bloc switching to 20% concrete bloc to 15% grass to 5% concrete bloc and so on .. you got the general idea of the theme. Consider the note theme ~10 points on transitions between surfaces and ~10 others in trying to be nearly 25% each.


You are welcome i mark you the differents in Big July were about mixed okay , April also but the Theme points going on the Transitions which means the Theme were Mixed Transitions which is a big differents to July were you transitions doesnt matterd.


So here my last my words before you start posting anymore non stuff like Double Themes , even when yes just dont join wait for the next MTC until yet only people complain who barly join or never join MTC . Also stop spreading fake news of MOD ABUSE like the Screenshot on Top this messages stayed for long there just sayin. They didnt got straight deleted. So stop saying something like this.
Also for the People who posting just half screenshots stop putting things out of context first of all and second show how long the Messages stayed and dont say and spread lies like he deleted them straight which is not true.

If you have more to say you can message me in Discord also we can Hopp on in Voice, i will listen to you and say something maybe about it.
If you have questions about the Themes sure go ahead even old Themes you can ask.
The one and only
Location: SE
2021-06-07 15:05:54  
Funfact While people complaining here about the Themes
We have more people joining this MTC's than the other ones before :smirk:
The one and only
Location: SE
2021-06-07 16:43:38  
SkyLinerAka says:

Oof okay seems like you really wanna go that way?
Okay First of all in June nothing got deleted i can see all Deleted Messages. No Criticism got deleted i love to see this fake news from you Ski_Freak.
And in April Just this got deleted which is basically nothing.


Just to address this real quick, i basically posted the same screenshot you did. In my opinion no forum posts that are not against the rules should be deleted and thats why i made that statement. Plus for me the post firestorrm made was clearly a critical one, which needed to be adressed in that thread instead of deleting it. Just my opinion tho.
Moderator
Location: 001
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